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Post by tfliprex on Oct 17, 2008 5:55:12 GMT
Subaru is dead, says Airikkala. Thu 16 Oct, 05:28 PM 1989 RAC winner and 1979 BRC champion Pentti Airikkala says Subaru are screwed! by Rob Wilkins Pentti Airikkala believes that the Subaru World Rally Team has virtually no chance of getting back on terms with Citroen and Ford - and that the Impreza WRC2008 has a fundamental design flaw. Subaru has struggled in recent years and the Banbury-based outfit hasn't won an event in the World Rally Championship now since 2005. Furthermore while the new car - billed as the most 'radically different Subaru WRC car in 15 years' - has given the Banbury-based outfit cause for some optimism since its debut on the Acropolis back in May, progress in the second half of the season hasn't been nearly as quick as team boss David Richards and co would have liked. Indeed Petter Solberg and Chris Atkinson both remain quite a way off the works Citroen C4 WRC's of Sebastien Loeb and Dani Sordo and the BP Ford Focus' of Mikko Hirvonen and Jari-Matti Latvala. Speaking exclusively to Crash.net Radio at the Castle Come Rallyday last month, Airikkala noted that the main issue is to do with the location of the engine. "Subaru is dead. It is dead. The problem is the same as Audi had - and still has. The engine is in the wrong position," he explained. "It is too far forward relative to the front axle and unless they change the engine location they are not going to do very well. "I have driven all of these cars and having too much weight in the front makes the car understeer. It doesn't change direction as quickly as other WRC cars where the engine is less on the top of the front axle. There is a big difference. Subaru is saying it is great because the engine is so low. But I don't buy it. "You have to have a weight transfer that is very fast in World Rally cars. You don't need it in F1 cars, but the cars without wings, like rally cars, they have to have a weight transfer that is very quick. To achieve that you have to put the weight high up in the car and then you can change direction very quickly. "Look at the switches they have now-a-days in WRC cars - the indicators, the windscreen wiper switch and the change of brake balance - they are all down in the floor. Everyone knows that is the wrong thing to do. Guess what, I won't be very popular for saying all this will!" Airikkala meanwhile also criticised Ford and where the M-Sport-run outfit has the spare wheel or wheels: "No, Mikko [Hirvonen] won't win the title this season - and there are three main reasons why," continued the 1989 RAC winner. "First, Citroen has a lot better engine. They have got the best engine in the sport. That is quite clear to see. They have a more powerful engine and engine power matters. "Secondly, they have got the spare wheel in the right place. All the Ford Focus' have the spare wheel in the end of the car - and weight distribution is important. Where Ford has it, it makes the Focus very difficult to drive. It is very slow to react and when it does react, it is then tough to get it back. Citroen doesn't have that. They have the spare wheel more or less in the middle of the car. "Also, they have softer suspension than the Focus. So even if you are a better driver than Sebastien Loeb you can't beat him. I would love to see him driving a Ford Focus and I'd like to see Mikko or Jari-Matti driving a Citroen. That would be exciting to see. But at the moment Sebastien has got the better car." Wow.... at the moment I am taken-a-back. We have all said that the Subies have understeering probs, and so did Atko in several interviews with WRC.com/Yahoo Eurosport/etc. I wonder how SWRT will respond to this... Geesh, I am a bit speechless, actually.
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Post by Vivski on Oct 17, 2008 8:24:16 GMT
It's pretty obvious that he's not far wrong. Petter and Chris have to drive much more aggressively to combat the understeer. Any attempt to balance the car through setup changes compromises the grip and speed of the car. I don't think it's a case of Subaru losing the plot, they have just not stepped up to meet Citroen. Citroen certainly know how to build a rally car!! Those C4s are brilliant, and I dare say Seb would still be ahead of the Subarus in his old Xsara.
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Post by Mixa on Oct 17, 2008 10:03:18 GMT
yeah I think so aswell. Indeed Airikkala has been saying this since the new car debut in Finland at motorsport.com forums and even I saw whats going on.
At brakes the nose of the car was diving and the backend was coming up. It was the same in the jumps! The car was heavily nose balanced. Thats not a way for success but when Im thinking,why? Subaru was the best balanced car in jumps at the success years 01-05 and after a disappointing 06 car them hasnt got back.
We need to remember that in early C4´s the engine was basically the same as in the Xsara WRC. Citroen moved to new C4 then and said that Xsara cannot be got any quicker but still them always were in the pace against Focus WRC 06. We all know that it was due to marketing and yes a Xsara WRC 08(if it could be there) it still would be quite competitive I quess so I agree with Viv. I also agree with the 06 Xsara.
Subaru just have so many probs and its not a shock in the end. As I said earlier when the Subie fans said that it will be a winner I told that its not gonna happen as Subaru would have to make a 4 minute better car in a rally than their 06-07 car.
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Post by Vivski on Oct 17, 2008 13:32:38 GMT
The thing is, S2000 will probably change things in WRC a lot! But it looks like the best placed manufacturer for S2000 is Citroen anyway. It doesn't look like it will help Subaru at all, but at the moment they don't have much to lose.
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Post by Nick McRae on Oct 18, 2008 13:17:58 GMT
I don't think I've heard anyone in the sport talk so much sense in a long time! The fact that Gronholm lost his spare wheel at times last year was proof it was in the wrong place!
Subaru really have need to get over their boxer engine - ok it's a unique selling point but the cars they make really arn't that special - who would by a car for an engine alone?
I always think the Citroen engine note sounds like it's being pushed as if it's making an effort. But the Ford's and Subaru's just seem to be whiny and lazy! Anyone else think that?
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Post by Hurricane on Oct 18, 2008 13:20:45 GMT
I always think the Citroen engine note sounds like it's being pushed as if it's making an effort. But the Ford's and Subaru's just seem to be whiny and lazy! Anyone else think that? Yea, especially the sound of the Fords.
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Post by Roo on Oct 18, 2008 23:56:22 GMT
WARNING! Super-Post ;D Subaru's boxer engine is more than capable power wise, it's just that they have put it too far forward in the car. This puts extra weight over the front wheels, making it harder to steer. I remember seeing the first pics of the Impreza WRC08 testing and a lot of people were commenting on how it looked that the engine was too far forward. They need to shove it further back under the bonnet, behind the front axel if possible. Also what Pentti Airikkala said about the placement of weight inside the car was interesting. Although it is normally desirable to place all the weight as far down and as close to the centre as possible, the idea of placing weight higher to assist in weight transfer during cornering is an interesting one. Because if I'm not mistaken, previously the task of making the car change direction quickly was helped by the active centre differentials. By adding-subtracting power from individual wheels, you can make the car turn in better. Now active centre diffs are banned and the diffs are a lot more basic, perhaps this affects the cars capacity to steer? I don't know. But I do know for certain that having the engine forward of the front axel makes the car more difficult to steer. Also Subaru have been struggling with suspension, and are set to change makes for next year, so at least they are solving one aspect of the problem. The other aspect, engine location, must be sorted out with the next evolution of the Impreza, and that might not be until the new WRC regs come into effect. So Subaru won't be able to fix the engine problem until they choose to homologate a new car. Could be next year, might be the year after. But the Ford's and Subaru's just seem to be whiny and lazy! Another car that sounded like that, in fact probably worse than the current Focus and Impreza WRCs was the Peugeot 206 and 307. Ignoring the "whale", the 206 may have sounded boring, but it was built and engineered properly, and the results speak for themselves. The complete opposite was the Lancer WRC (Evo VII). Sounded awesome, but just didn't go. The thing is, S2000 will probably change things in WRC a lot! It doesn't look like it will help Subaru at all, but at the moment they don't have much to lose. Super2000 is in the same category as Group N, so really Subaru are ideally placed for the new regulations. What is crucial is that Subaru in Japan design the next Impreza with rallying in mind. The Japanese engineers must take on Prodrive and SWRT's concerns regarding engine location and rectify this for the next model of the Impreza road car. This is because the new regs will rely more heavily on the base road car than the current WRC specs. Unfortunately, Japanese based manufacturers have a reputation of being very pushy and unreasonable when it comes to rallying, (Suzuki and Toyota being prime examples) so unless there is a change in head engineer at Subaru Japan, it is likely that Subaru will have to deal with this problem for a few more years to come.
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Post by wheretheendingstarts on Oct 19, 2008 18:31:17 GMT
Theres nothing wrong with the car at all. (i havent been bothered to read all the posts SORRY!). the car is capable of winning rallies & has already done so. Its the drivers (sorry again).
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Post by tfliprex on Oct 20, 2008 2:55:18 GMT
There is only one way to determine if the "death" is more related to drivers rather than car: Get someone else to drive it. Ok, I know that there are two other Subies: Tirabassi and Ostberg, but they are too fresh. Someone like Loeb to do a run with a Subie would be interesting. Also something to consider is what someone posted on the crash.net commentary section regarding this article: "Why not move the front crossmember & wheels farther forward? They could dry sump the oil pan and move the diff to where the oil pan was and move the engine back the difference. Wouldn't that move the engine back about 8 inches? I'd also put the weight more between the axles because the wheels would more in line with the engine instead of the engine hanging out in front of the wheels." Granted, I am not a mechanic nor an engineer, but there is some truth to what this guy wrote.
Flip
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Post by Will on Oct 20, 2008 6:59:48 GMT
the car is capable of winning rallies & has already done so When?
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Post by Hurricane on Oct 20, 2008 7:05:11 GMT
It won the McRae stages a week or two back, driven by Markko Martin. I'm not really counting that as a proper rally win though...
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Post by Mixa on Oct 20, 2008 9:36:31 GMT
Yeah.. Markko was just cruising and beaten some guys who aint so pro. Markko is still a good driver and with the works car you just have to win those kind of rallyes. What comes to drivers I dont know is there anyone who could do the things better. Ok you could replace Petter as hes not in that level anymore but Atko in a good day is an ultra fast driver. Ok Atko has been slower than Petter at the last rallyes whats quite weird but I think that even Loeb wouldnt be able to win with the Impreza as then ahead of him for sure would be Sordo atleast and maybe even some Ford drivers. Its still sad how far Subaru has gone in just a 4 seasons. It just feels amazing. I dont know what them could do but firstly them needs someone who can solve those problems. The car balance just aint right and Ive seen it myself either and so has the fans. It was also quite intresting at the videos where you can clearly see how Subaru keeps to push on at tight corners when Ford and Citroen stays pretty much on the line. Is it the boxer engine? Could be as everything comes older when technology goes on! There are a lot of examples for engine sitch´s from the past....
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Post by Vivski on Oct 21, 2008 0:25:30 GMT
Don't forget, Petter Solberg is a world champion. Markko winning a rally is like Wilson winning the McRae memorial rally. I wouldn't read much into it.
There is no argument here. The drivers are going flat out and nowhere near the pace (even when the road is being swept infront of them). It's hard to see Subaru winning a rally this season. Too many Fords and Citroens would have to fall off the road.
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Post by Hurricane on Oct 21, 2008 8:09:08 GMT
I think Petter lost his confidence due to all the bad luck he had in the past years. Atkinson had good speed at the start of the season, but struggled to adapt to the new Subaru.
I think if Märtin joined the works Subaru squad, the first real win of the car wouldn't be far off.
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Post by Vivski on Oct 21, 2008 9:00:39 GMT
If that were the case, Markko would already have a drive for Japan, GB and the 2009 season.
Petter would know if his driving was not up to scratch and he would say so. He may not have confidence or a feel for the car, but he's pushing that thing to the max. Anyone who has seen Chris Atkinson driving this season would know that he's as committed as ever.
I really can't understand why you'd blame the drivers for what is obviously a rubbish car. To say that car is capable of winning world rally events outright...
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