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Post by chrisfinch on May 19, 2005 11:44:36 GMT
they all look better than my crap school Hartshill. failed disastrously in ofsted reports, in special measures, and it looks like a tip
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Post by Revolution 9 on May 20, 2005 21:16:54 GMT
...And... Is it on of those places where you are tought on history that USSR was the invader, it did occupy you, and that it wasn't USSR at all to defeat fascism? Most of the UK and other western countries are taught stuff like that. Don't worry I'm a socialist, I'm not going to get rampantly against all socialists and believe the capitalist lie that all Russians are evil and want to invade. I'm quite aware that after 1929 Russia went down a terrible road and under Stalin and his successors like Kruschev and Breznev terrible crimes against humanity were commited that make all real socialists like me ill to think about what was done under the disguise of the sickle and hammer, but many of the individual Russian people themselves were themselves real socialists, even under Stalinist rule, and didn't agree with Siberian gulags and war crimes, and didn't agree with western capitalist expoitation or sickening fascist warcrimes either, and you have to admit that many of these Russian socialists made sacrifices or were prepared to to save the world from Hitler and his lunatic regime, it's just unfortunate that the same socialists were unable to remove the corrupt scum that were their leaders in time to prevent the terrible crimes commited under Stalin. WWII and The Cold War are complicated, you can't boil them down to such a simple thing as saying that the Americans and British were good guys fighting for democracy, the Germans were all wicked Nazis and all Russians are evil Stalinists who want to invade everywhere and send innocent people to gulags. None of the above are true in the slightest.
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Post by OverSauron on May 21, 2005 3:15:54 GMT
American good guys fighting for democracy?)) The USA joint real war only when it was understood that the USSR was winning the war. But it joint not to help us, no!!! It joint to prevent the influence of the USSR on Europe!!! I am not a socialist, but I am a patriot, and I hate when people, countries or governments are too proud to say that the one country helped them and saved the whole world, saying instead it was an enemy! It's not to you, Rev, you're right guy!
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Post by Revolution 9 on May 21, 2005 13:51:22 GMT
I agree with you there. You get a lot of feeling here in the UK that the British were able to fight off Hitler alone, and a lot of ignorance that the Russians played a big part in the war. While it's true that during the Battle of Britain in 1940 Britain was alone in fighting off a Nazi invasion of Britain because France had already been defeated, it was still recieving help from other countries in the form of food, weapons, ammunition, aircraft etc being sent in ships from all over the world to help the war effort. Besides that we barely just won the battle of Britain, and the only reason Hitler didn't try again is because there was a succession of different countries entering the war to help us out, first the USSR in 1941, which meant that Hitler had to divert many troops and planes, tanks etc to fight Russia instead of landing in Britain, then the Americans a year later, who made major contributions to the efforts already being attempted by the British to liberate Europe. Also, many people, prompted by Hollywood, think that many of the big achievments of the war were done only by the Americans, such as D Day. D Day was also an effort by the UK, Canada, Australia, India, New Zealand, and even refugees from countries taken over by the Nazis such as Estonia, Czechoslovakia, Poland, France etc, and it wouldn't have been possible if the Nazi military had not been split in half by having to fight two massive armies at once, the Soviet army in the East, and the Allied Coalition in the West. As such you have to admit that the USSR did make a valid contribution to ending Hitler's rule in Europe, and even if after they had achieved that the corrupt scum that had taken power away from the people of Russia in 1929 in order to rule over Russia alone went on to commit horrible crimes against people in Russia and Eastern Europe, you still have to acknowedge that millions of individual all over the world, a huge number of them in Russia, were prepared to do anything, including die, to stop Hitler, and a huge number did die, especially in Russia, in that attempt. It was the fault of Stalin and his corrupt pals that Estonia became occupied after the war, not the fault of millions of heroes who done everything they could to stop Hitler, and that includes millions of Russians.
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Post by OverSauron on May 24, 2005 11:50:57 GMT
Hm, of course I am agree with you, Rev... Mainly, it's Stalin's fault... But... without this strict rule the USSR wouldn't be united mentally, Stalin was the Father for the people of the USSR. Without him during the war the USSR could be divided into small parts, and so the USSR (and it means the whole world) would lose the war against fascism, like it already did the most of Europe, even France. As for occupation. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were the parts of the USSR! How could we occupy our territiry?! But, even it wa so... Look at Finland! We tried to get them under us as in Russian Empire Finland was Russian! But this cool guys tried and showed us that they are independent! Well done! They were strong. But Baltic countries were weak! Without us they would have a fascism, they would be the slaves of the German!!! And look at them!!! They are even proud of it now! They are the only contries in the world where fascism is still popular!!! Shame on you!!!
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Post by Revolution 9 on May 24, 2005 21:09:14 GMT
I'll agree that Russia had strong leadership, and something kept it's soldiers fighting when even the Germans brainwashed by Hitler's propaganda into doing terrible things that they were later to be ashamed of (look at Germany today, the vast majority of Germans are ashamed of Hitler and the Nazi rule) began to give up, such as their surrender at Stalingrad, but you still can't forget that Stalin done terrible things to people in the USSR, and besides that I suspect that it was Trotsky, who engineered the Red Army before he was exiled, was probably more responsible for the strength of the soldiers loyalty to Russia, I've read and heard a few of his speeches to his soldiers, and it was him who made every ordinary Russian soldier a loyal socialist, it was the leaders of the party and the military leaders placed by Stalin who engineered the atrocities. I can't help wondering if the USSR might not have had a much better history had Trotsky have remained in Russia and become head of the party, and it had been Stalin who was cast out.
Of course there are what ifs with every country. Not many people realise that Scotland almost became a socialist republic in the 1920s-1930s, during a period of trade union strikes. A coalition of lorry drivers, railway workers, and shipyard workers, ship crews and dock workers met in Glasgow to take power, and planned to march on the nearby army barracks, ask the armed forces to join them and give them weapons, then take Scotland into the hands of the workers. However, they were told not to march by their union leaders until the time was right, and all the while the leaders secretly negotiated with the government to end the revolt, and eventually the workers were forced to retreat and return to work, as the revolt had been called off, and the military had been alterted and consolidated to crush the revolt in any case, so they no longer had surprise on their side, and as such the revolt never took place. Not many people have ever heard that part of British history, but here in the West of Scotland, on the banks of the Clyde, many socialists are aware of the "Red Clydesiders" and their dreams of equality.
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Post by L u c k y S u p r a 7 on May 24, 2005 23:51:04 GMT
Not many people have ever heard that part of British history Now I have.
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Post by OverSauron on May 25, 2005 3:12:04 GMT
Trotsky was a very clever man, but to rule the country he didn't have enough power of himself. If he was the leader of RKPb that time, we would lose the war. But... there's one thing. Everybody, even minister of GB told Stalin that Hitler was planning to attack the Soviet Union. But Stalin didn't beleive this as he thought all that was just the plan of capitalistic countries to make the USSR weak. So, when Germany attacked, noone in Russian army was warned!! It was the holiday in Russia!!! It was the final day of schools and universities, all the people were on streets!!! And we didn't have any fvcking information about this war!!! I think If trotsky had been the leadrer, he would have make the army ready for the war. But there are no "if" in history.
The most "clever" were americans! They didn't lose people in the war as we (ther's no single family in Russia even now, the relative of which didn't die in this war!!! Can you imagine this?! And still some countries are judging us!!!), they just "helped" us. And then they waited when Europe and the USSR won the war, when they became tired and economically weak, and then made in Bretton-Woods their fvcking dollar the leading currency!!! Who won the war? And now look who was leading the world economy after it? Is it fair you think?
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Post by L u c k y S u p r a 7 on May 25, 2005 12:33:17 GMT
The most "clever" were americans! They didn't lose people in the war as we (ther's no single family in Russia even now, the relative of which didn't die in this war!!! Can you imagine this?! And still some countries are judging us!!!), they just "helped" us. And then they waited when Europe and the USSR won the war, when they became tired and economically weak, and then made in Bretton-Woods their fvcking dollar the leading currency!!! Who won the war? And now look who was leading the world economy after it? Is it fair you think? I see what your getting to sauron. From what I learned from school, a reason why the USA went to war is because the Germans were attacking our naval ships, who were carrying supplies to other countries in the war. Then in 1941, our president at the time gave orders for our ships to attack the Germans, so we were having an undeclared naval war! Darn, I don't think this has anything to do with what ya'll are talking about, but i just wanted to say that. And someone did win the war. The ALLIES won the war (RUS, USA, GB, FR, and many other countires) not just one country! Many countries joined in to fight and win! I guess its in our country to be the last one standing (even though I don't think it was planned) and take all the glory.... which brings me to the economy deal.>>> I believe the reason why USA economy was so good because the other big countries, like Russia, Britain, France, Japan, etc., resources and money were exhausted from this war. Since the USA came in at the end of the war, we didn't use all of our money up and what-not. So this is probably why we led the world economy. That's my two cents (and a nickel).
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Post by OverSauron on May 25, 2005 13:12:38 GMT
The ALLIES won the war (RUS, USA, GB, FR, and many other countires) not just one country! Sorry, but I can't agree. France? Oh, they gave up in 1940!!! Did they have power? No. Great Britain? They just sat on their island and waited... Did they have power? No. USA? To send money, medicines, food, technics, machines is of course very good. But did they defeat fascism? No. the USSR. What they had? Economics? Yes. Our plants were very strong. Spirit? Yes. Where else will you find 200 mln people of a one united nation to stand against the enemy? Manpower? Yes. It were our soldiers to: 1. First ever in the war STOP and BEAT Germans in Stalingrad 2. Go through the whole Europe to make the countries free 3. Place the flag of freedom onthe Parliament of Germany. 4. After the war finished, HELPED USA to defeat Japan, but honestly will be to say that Japan too was defeated by the USSR. What France? What GB? What (in some parts) USA? Friends, understand me correctly, I love all these countries and all the nations and all you, but it was the only country to win the war, others just helped us in some or other way. And it was shown on May 9th, when the celebrations of 60th anniversary was held in Russia.
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Post by L u c k y S u p r a 7 on May 25, 2005 22:54:46 GMT
Ok! Now I understand! Your correct! Forgot France was taken over by the Germans! Russia did do most of the work in that war. I'm sorry that ya'll didn't get credit for it. Blame our nationalism.......
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kikq
Marshall
Posts: 36
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Post by kikq on May 27, 2005 19:09:43 GMT
Kaila, if jez saw your sig he'd kill you.
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Post by L u c k y S u p r a 7 on May 31, 2005 12:38:56 GMT
I'll change it sooner or later.
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